HIPS- breeder opinions wanted Options

[Trinity]

The thread HORRIBLE #3 brought up some questons for me. I would like to hear from some breeders who have some experience in this.

In the 9 years I have been involved with this breed, I have seen hip scores improve. YEARS ago, in speaking to several reputable breeders, they may have had to use a dog with poor hips due to the fact that there was not as large a pool to choose from back then. ALSO, all the breeders ( who knew what they were doing) also said, a strong reason for using a dog with poor hips in a breeding program would be his parents both had good hips, and so did most of the litter, AND this dog had everything else going for it, structure, health, head, temperment etc.

So, my question is now, with so many dogs with great hips, many many ranking in the 90th percentile, why in the world would you use poor hips in a breeding program? Why not use a dog with great hips, many are available. Why not move forward witht he health of this breed, and not backwards?

I can think of one big reason-MONEY. People invest money , then the dog does not turn out , and they use it anyway, because that is what they have.
Or maybe kennel blindness, there is plenty of that going around.

Interested to hear some feedback

[Tiffany]

I just did Ronins prelim OFA ( I personally dont care for PENN its not as accurate to me its like grading the class on curve)
I personally just want to know, I had hips, elbows, and shoulders. The second and third opinion on his shoulder was it was not dysplasia it was in fact just growth and it will likely take care of its self, so we will see what the OFA shows. I think it should be said more than just HIPS needs to be checked. Many large dogs have issues with the front end as well that is genetic and can be transferred to offspring.
So why did I decide to get his OFA ? Well he's trialing, i am hoping big things for him. Hes got an excellent temperment and quite a bit a drive mainly prey at this point but that is balancing out as time goes on. When he titles and depending on the female- if a reputable breeder wanted to use him in their program I would be ok with that if and ONLY if his OFA comes back good. Breeding is about increasing your odds in obtaining the best traits of both dogs, unfortunetly if he is dysplatic it doesn't matter if he has his P3 (that is a stretch lol) he will not be bred ever. Its also good for the breeder to know where his pairing stands. I would want to know, and how many people who purchase corsos spend the money to have the OFA done? not many I'm assuming.
I dont know if this answers your question but its my take on it

[Trinity]

Hi Tiffany,
Absolutely more testing needs to be done than just hips. However , for this post, its hips.

PS, great job with Ronin! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

[Corso_princess]

i know so many "breeders" and people wanting to be "breeders" that say "if my dog doesn't look Dysplastic then it probably isn't so why test?"

in my opinion NO dog should be bred that does not have passing hips. I do agree with many dogs out there with good hips they should be used vs dogs with bad hips.

I also agree with Tiffany there should be more than just hips tested.

i think its funny that some breeders post all but a few hip scores. or all but a few elbow scores. a certain "breeder" has a female that was told by many judges there is something wrong with her hips. (most judges that have been in dogs for 40+ years know what thier looking at) yet this "breeder" said they were idiots and bred the bitch any ways. They also have another dog with elbow problems. a blind monkey could tell there is something wrong with both dogs yet they still breed and post they breed for "health" its just sad

and to answer your question Karen the reason people use these dogs is because they don't want to PAY for a stud fee of a nice healthy dog OR because they like one specific trait of a dog with bad hips. Yes, MONEY and KENNEL BLINDNESS

it takes a good breeder to recognize FAULTS and breed to improve them and thats NOT the same as breeding DISQUALIFICATIONS you cant improve that.

[maximus2112]

We took our female in for a Penn Hip eval and spayed her immediately after we saw the x-rays. It sucks to do but it was the right thing to do in the end regardless of the amount of money you put into them. Now we will concentrate on making her life as comfortable as possible. She our feisty bitch )

[Mike Burgwald]

We took our female in for a Penn Hip eval and spayed her immediately after we saw the x-rays. It sucks to do but it was the right thing to do in the end regardless of the amount of money you put into them. Now we will concentrate on making her life as comfortable as possible. She our feisty bitch )

Hold that thought! I reply once I get of Dutie.



Mike Burgwald aka Burgwald kennel since 1995

[roy]

Should I spend my time ? If the post will be deleted in 5 minutes,,

[lil tee]

Should I spend my time ?

Yes Roy please do!

If they won't plead for you to stay,on behalf of the regular old CC owners,I WILL!




t

[Mike Burgwald]

The thread HORRIBLE #3 brought up some questons for me. I would like to hear from some breeders who have some experience in this.

In the 9 years I have been involved with this breed, I have seen hip scores improve. YEARS ago, in speaking to several reputable breeders, they may have had to use a dog with poor hips due to the fact that there was not as large a pool to choose from back then. ALSO, all the breeders ( who knew what they were doing) also said, a strong reason for using a dog with poor hips in a breeding program would be his parents both had good hips, and so did most of the litter, AND this dog had everything else going for it, structure, health, head, temperment etc.

So, my question is now, with so many dogs with great hips, many many ranking in the 90th percentile, why in the world would you use poor hips in a breeding program? Why not use a dog with great hips, many are available. Why not move forward witht he health of this breed, and not backwards?

I can think of one big reason-MONEY. People invest money , then the dog does not turn out , and they use it anyway, because that is what they have.
Or maybe kennel blindness, there is plenty of that going around.

Interested to hear some feedback

Trinity,


Great question, first you must understand, that even with great hip score results, this does not guarentee the same results from your offspring's, "Not Even Half Will Have Passing Hip Score's " and remember that skeletal defects are the most difficult to change.
One must also remember that the Sir & Dam, which you select for breeding today will have an impact on the breed for many years to come. Keep that thought firmly in mind when you choose breeding stock, my rule of thumb, Prilim at 16 wks.
And for those of you who run out, and buy prospect Corso's, rule of thumb, you can choose only two individuals per generation.
Choose only the best, because you will have to wait for another generation to improve what you start with. Breed only if you expect progeny to be better than both parents.
Breed for a total dog, not just one or two characteristics. Don't follow fads in your breed, because they are usually meant to emphasize one or two features of the dog at the expense of the soundness and function of the whole.
As I said before, A pedigree is a tool to help you learn the good and bad attributes that your dog is likely to exhibit or re-produce. A pedigree is only as good as the dog it represents.

My final thought: Quality does not mean quantity. Quality is produced by careful study, having a good mental picture of what you are trying to achieve, having patience to wait until the right breeding stock is available and to evaluate what you have already produced, and above all, having a breeding plan that is at least three generations ahead of the breeding you do today.


Mike Burgwald aka Burgwald Kennel since 1995

Attached File(s)

 Arcilles__Cory___Brendon.jpg ( 893.49k ) Number of downloads: 14

 

[Nora]

Hi I brought up a somewhat similar post in the ccaa bb, about breeding dogs that hips ARE PennHipped, Clear, that are SO YOUNG, less than a year and around that age, WHY BREED A DOG SO YOUNG, Even if those Hips are clear via PennHip, I would prefer to see that dog to maturement, especially MALES, I would prefer to see what they look like as adults BEFORE I breed them, no matter the Hip Placement at a YOUNG AGE. What is the Purpose of breeding such a Young dog?????? I have yet to hear an answer, in fact I would prefer ANY Answer from ANYONE to my question?

Nora Saunders
www.nirvanacanecorso.com

[estorm]

Hi I brought up a somewhat similar post in the ccaa bb, about breeding dogs that hips ARE PennHipped, Clear, that are SO YOUNG, less than a year and around that age, WHY BREED A DOG SO YOUNG, Even if those Hips are clear via PennHip, I would prefer to see that dog to maturement, especially MALES, I would prefer to see what they look like as adults BEFORE I breed them, no matter the Hip Placement at a YOUNG AGE. What is the Purpose of breeding such a Young dog?????? I have yet to hear an answer, in fact I would prefer ANY Answer from ANYONE to my question?

Nora Saunders
www.nirvanacanecorso.com

It's controversial and it's been brought up a number of times over the years which has made some run for the hills who don't want to see it again. You have the difference in opinion on an OFA pre-lim as well, long story short I personally like the Penn better and do it at a young age just to see where the joints are in developement with some not all. I don't agree with doing it so they can be bred earlier and feel if you're going to check it early then check it later too or wait until later, there is no reason to rush it or hurry up to breed if that was the reason. (some do it before the possibilty of an injury). If I see a great rating I want to know the age it was done as well.

[Mike Burgwald]

It's controversial and it's been brought up a number of times over the years which has made some run for the hills who don't want to see it again. You have the difference in opinion on an OFA pre-lim as well, long story short I personally like the Penn better and do it at a young age just to see where the joints are in developement with some not all. I don't agree with doing it so they can be bred earlier and feel if you're going to check it early then check it later too or wait until later, there is no reason to rush it or hurry up to breed if that was the reason. (some do it before there might ba an injury). If I see a great rating I want to know the age it was done as well.

Estorm,


I agree checking hips early are not a reason to breed early, prelim hips at 16wks, give you a idea of what your working with, and I for one ant going to move forward with a dog that does not fit the require prelim at 16 wks.
As breeding early, well you guys pick AKC and they allow the bitch to be breed at a year old, now that is some bullshit, 18 months min in my book. ( So 2 year old will be the number at best )


Mike Burgwald aka Burgwald kennel since 1995

[Mike Burgwald]

Hi I brought up a somewhat similar post in the ccaa bb, about breeding dogs that hips ARE PennHipped, Clear, that are SO YOUNG, less than a year and around that age, WHY BREED A DOG SO YOUNG, Even if those Hips are clear via PennHip, I would prefer to see that dog to maturement, especially MALES, I would prefer to see what they look like as adults BEFORE I breed them, no matter the Hip Placement at a YOUNG AGE. What is the Purpose of breeding such a Young dog?????? I have yet to hear an answer, in fact I would prefer ANY Answer from ANYONE to my question?

Nora Saunders
www.nirvanacanecorso.com

Nora,


I'll answer that for you, but you must first understand why no one wants to speak up, the reason is because it's the MONEY!!
They cant wait, they need the MONEY !!!!
And here a very true and sad issue, once they cant make you no more money, they have to go, which leave many of us, trying to place other people dogs or should I say mess.


Mike Burgwald aka Burgwald kennel since 1995

[reinafawn]

Hi I brought up a somewhat similar post in the ccaa bb, about breeding dogs that hips ARE PennHipped, Clear, that are SO YOUNG, less than a year and around that age, WHY BREED A DOG SO YOUNG, Even if those Hips are clear via PennHip, I would prefer to see that dog to maturement, especially MALES, I would prefer to see what they look like as adults BEFORE I breed them, no matter the Hip Placement at a YOUNG AGE. What is the Purpose of breeding such a Young dog?????? I have yet to hear an answer, in fact I would prefer ANY Answer from ANYONE to my question?

Nora Saunders
www.nirvanacanecorso.com

In some cases, the reason for breeding young males (less than 24 months) to older bitches is because the breeder may have been waiting for years and generations upon generations for the type that is in their male to mix with their bitch, who may be near the end of her most fertile years. I believe it's something very controversial, somewhat like the topic of close inbreeding, that unless a person has been involved in the breed and been breeding for several years, it shouldn't be performed. I don't necessarily agree with using young males that only have a preliminary PennHIP clearance, but if a person is extremely familiar with the bloodline, progeny of every dog within it, then fine. It's pretty risky, but serious breeders do take risks every so often.

The above is an changed answer I got from a well-seasoned Pointer breeder.

There definitely are cases where it is just for money, but not always. I know a select few Corso breeders that have done this. I find it odd to see puppies bred by a puppy sire, though. It's just strange to me.


On the original subject, "why would you breed to a dog with poor hips with all the dogs that have good hips?" I read a quote by a South African Boerboel breeder that, if all people focused on was hips, in 10 years the breed would be physically poor because of the attention drawn away from the total package. I believe that yes, hips are important, but what percentage, currently, of Cane Corsi are actually dysplastic? I believe so long as you're staying about OFA Good (sometimes OFA Fair but bred to OFA Good or Excellent, not Fair, ever) and PennHIP ~0.30-0.50, you can take the time to focus on other characteristics just as important as the hips.

On a checklist of things to check in a dog before breeding it, hips should be, without a doubt, unquestionable. Get them checked asap, get a good rating, and then you can go on and study the rest of the characteristics in your dog and what would compliment it.

My opinion only.